For Sale: Neopaganism “As Is”

edderkopper:

answersfromvanaheim:

honorthegods:

answersfromvanaheim:

glegrumbles:

This is required reading.

I don’t agree with everything in this essay have found the author to be a bit pretentious at times, but this is important reading.

Thanks for posting this link. I read it, and I want to point out where I disagree.

The author focuses on New Ageism and Wicca, and includes Reconstructionist and Revivalist under the “neo-pagan” umbrella.  At one point the author says: 

It doesn’t matter how real and ancient the source material for your spiritual practices are, because of the time you live in your spiritual practice is still classified as a new religious movement. If that practice revives ancient polytheistic beliefs it also becomes classified as neopagan.

That may be academic reasoning, or perhaps not, but, as has been frequently noted elsewhere, some people prefer to be called “pagan”, and many Reconstructionists and Revivalists completely reject “pagan” or “neo-pagan” labels. Academics who refuse to use the labels chosen by the groups they study aren’t helping anyone. I suspect that part of the reason why some classicists reject Reconstructionist and Revivalist religions is because they think of us as “neo-pagans”, meaning they believe our methodology and process is as bad as that  described in this article – and, for the most part, they couldn’t be more wrong.

The author doesn’t like ethnographers and anthropologists because white academics weren’t always respectful of the indigenous cultures they studied – which is true, in some cases, but that doesn’t mean white academics aren’t trying to do better now, and erases the work of academics of color.

Further on, the author says:

Neopaganism is one of white people’s ways of trying to reconnect with a core spirituality as, over time and waves of mass immigration, many people of European origin have lost the knowledge and practice of their ancestors’ cultural beliefs, traditions, festivals, rites, and body of knowledge. 

This erases neo-pagans of color, and also seemingly throws Reconstructionists and Revivalists under the bus.

There have undoubtedly been abuses in neo-paganism of the sort the author describes, and the author is right to be angry about it. The author also seems to want to watch it burn:

Do the spiritual paths of neopaganism deserve a place at the big table with the grown up religions who are millennia old? In the current state of things, no, I do not personally believe they do. 

Thanks again from the Reconstructionsist and Revivalists who are trying, through sound research, to practice religious systems that were destroyed by some of the supposedly “grown-up religions”. And, in defense of neo-pagan religions, just because a religion is “millennnia old” doesn’t give it greater spiritual or moral authority than any others. By that standard, Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam should be denied places at the “big table”, too. 

The closing paragraph includes this nugget:

Reconstructionists have the potential and experience to keep existing indigenous spiritual traditions alive or to resurrect dormant ones as closely as possible with respect the originals. 

Nice that the author grudgingly allowed that Reconstructionists and Revivalists might have something good going, having lumped us in with “neo-pagans” from the beginning of the article makes it a backhanded compliment at this point. I think we can offer advice about doing research, but many of us are solitary, and have poor opinions of groups for the reasons the author stated. Many of us will also caution about “looking to the ancestors”, because we know that has led to fascists and neo-nazis trying to co-opt ancient religions for modern political gain.

No religion so far has been free from abuses of power, or sexual abuse, but here is no reason neo-paganism cannot or should not survive this crisis, if it is willing to clean house. Perhaps, because of the proportionally high numbers of women and LGBTQA+ individuals involved, neo-pagan religions can do better than the rest, and not just survive, but thrive.

I don’t have much to add because this sums up my issues with the article as well. I will add that as far as academia is concerned, how an academic might categorize religious traditions =/= how a practitioner would, academics have a ton of fancy words for talking about religions that aren’t necessarily relevant to people “on the ground” actually doing religion. In my field (religious studies) it is stressed over and over that we don’t teach religion, we teach *about* religion, teaching religion is for religious specialists in that religion.

I should also note that all of my professors when I was doing my undergrad referred to both “Paganism” and “Neo-Paganism”, but, you know, academics argue over terminology all the time. It’s what they do, they argue.

In addition, calling people by the labels they wish to be called is basic respect, it doesn’t matter if it’s “grammatically incorrect”.

Still, while I agree with the above criticisms, the main point of the article, the long history of rampant sexual abuse, is something every pagan needs to be aware of.

This is actually the best criticism I have seen of this article to date and I find myself agreeing with it. I have a lot of respect for Sarah Anne Lawless, and particular respect for the stance she has taken against sexual abuse and abuse of power within modern paganism. While there is plenty of room to disagree with her on labeling, and I’m not so sure it deserved the amount of air time she gave it in this article, I think that the thrust of this article was less about labeling and more about the dirty roots of modern paganism which is something that all of us should address, consider, and be highly aware of.

For Sale: Neopaganism “As Is”

estfortis:

woolandcoffee:

estfortis:

woolandcoffee:

madamehearthwitch:

woolandcoffee:

estfortis:

woolandcoffee:

madamehearthwitch:

woolandcoffee:

madamehearthwitch:

woolandcoffee:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – I hate vegans, veganism, and the demonization of animal agriculture as a universal bad. Fucking fight me.

SAME SAME SAME

There are so many of them here at my school and it is e x h a u s t i n g. I’m currently at a lunch event that has only vegan mac n cheese (nevermind that soy is a common allergen and no one who has a soy allergy can eat any of the lunch), because the event planners figured that the event, which is about lab-grown meat, should have an environmentally friendly lunch. The ignorance is astounding. The assumption that all plant-based food is automatically more environmentally friendly than animal-based food, the idea that immediately ending all animal agriculture right away is the key to stopping climate change, the immediate “that’s vegan bashing!” response to any form of questioning or criticism. Basically, I have been here for 20 minutes and I need a double shot of whisky and a cheeseburger.

Don’t get me started on how many of their substitutes are made of P L A S T I C, and also fall apart in a year or so.

Right?? Honestly, my personal theory is that all veganism is actually deeply rooted in an aversion to death. The whole thing is based in the idea that death is bad, and should be avoided at all cost.

I think this is true. It’s the same thinking that suggests that we need to leave forests completely alone and never cut or let them burn. That’s actually terrible management but it keeps us from “killing trees” so it must be the only ethical way… right?

Yes, I think it comes from the same place. And I get it, it’s a very simple way of thinking that seems, at least on the outside, to be right. Killing things is bad, so we should just not kill things (by the same token, making any kind of mark on the environment is bad, only pure conservation is good, and so on). But that’s a very unrealistic way of looking at things. How we feed people, and how we manage our environment is not a simple thing. It is complex, dynamic, and no one thing is going to miraculously solve our problems.

((You’re totally making sense and I don’t think I’ve ever read a discussion on this website I’ve ever agreed with more than this one!))

((I’m glad to have some reasonable people to talk to about this. The law school that I go to tends to embrace the idea that veganism = best environmental practices, and engaging in any discussion of why that might not be the case can be a dicey thing. This post genuinely started as me being annoyed that the only food on offer at this lunch time event was a vegan pasta, so I’m glad that it could grow to something a little more eloquent than me just being cranky and hungry.))

Lol you don’t go to school in Oregon do you…?

Good guess! I’m at Lewis & Clark law school in Portland. It’s been a little bit of a shock adjusting to some of the attitudes towards food here.

Ha, I was gonna guess U of O but Portland is almost as bad as Eugene. It really is a trip though – I worked at a food co-op for a couple of years and it was a learning experience for sure (especially after having lived the first 2 decades of my life in Indiana!).

Yeah it was pretty wild coming up here from the California Bay Area. I mean, there are vegans in the Bay, of course, but the whole of the Bay Area is a good-sized agricultural community, and it’s such a diverse area that the veganism movement just doesn’t have the same bite there as it does here. At least in my experience, you were more likely to get people who were militantly farm-to-table, which can be irritating, but I vastly prefer those people to vegans because they have a scooch more reason when it comes to issues of poverty and respect for traditional foodways. And of course my experience on a law campus with an animal law program is a bit strange in and of itself. But for sure, Oregon has some strange ways of approaching food that can be a little difficult for a new-comer to to adjust to.

My favorites are honestly the ones who not only want everyone to transition to a 100% plant based diet, but who also actively go after hunters / hunting programs no-holds-barred. Like no one realizes those systems are integral for the impoverished in some areas- or that they’re integral to indigenous food customs? Because Veganism is for rich white folks who don’t have to worry about food insecurity- let alone food insecurity that’s 100% directly due to their race and (usually rural) location.

I completely agree with you. As the daughter of someone who’s father had to depend on hunting to feed his family due to class and a rural location, that is a huge issue for me. Honestly, everything I want to say in response to this and about the destructiveness of veganism as a movement in general could be a many-page paper, but I’m a tired student with no time, so I’ll just reiterate that I 100% agree with this.

estfortis:

woolandcoffee:

madamehearthwitch:

woolandcoffee:

estfortis:

woolandcoffee:

madamehearthwitch:

woolandcoffee:

madamehearthwitch:

woolandcoffee:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – I hate vegans, veganism, and the demonization of animal agriculture as a universal bad. Fucking fight me.

SAME SAME SAME

There are so many of them here at my school and it is e x h a u s t i n g. I’m currently at a lunch event that has only vegan mac n cheese (nevermind that soy is a common allergen and no one who has a soy allergy can eat any of the lunch), because the event planners figured that the event, which is about lab-grown meat, should have an environmentally friendly lunch. The ignorance is astounding. The assumption that all plant-based food is automatically more environmentally friendly than animal-based food, the idea that immediately ending all animal agriculture right away is the key to stopping climate change, the immediate “that’s vegan bashing!” response to any form of questioning or criticism. Basically, I have been here for 20 minutes and I need a double shot of whisky and a cheeseburger.

Don’t get me started on how many of their substitutes are made of P L A S T I C, and also fall apart in a year or so.

Right?? Honestly, my personal theory is that all veganism is actually deeply rooted in an aversion to death. The whole thing is based in the idea that death is bad, and should be avoided at all cost.

I think this is true. It’s the same thinking that suggests that we need to leave forests completely alone and never cut or let them burn. That’s actually terrible management but it keeps us from “killing trees” so it must be the only ethical way… right?

Yes, I think it comes from the same place. And I get it, it’s a very simple way of thinking that seems, at least on the outside, to be right. Killing things is bad, so we should just not kill things (by the same token, making any kind of mark on the environment is bad, only pure conservation is good, and so on). But that’s a very unrealistic way of looking at things. How we feed people, and how we manage our environment is not a simple thing. It is complex, dynamic, and no one thing is going to miraculously solve our problems.

((You’re totally making sense and I don’t think I’ve ever read a discussion on this website I’ve ever agreed with more than this one!))

((I’m glad to have some reasonable people to talk to about this. The law school that I go to tends to embrace the idea that veganism = best environmental practices, and engaging in any discussion of why that might not be the case can be a dicey thing. This post genuinely started as me being annoyed that the only food on offer at this lunch time event was a vegan pasta, so I’m glad that it could grow to something a little more eloquent than me just being cranky and hungry.))

Lol you don’t go to school in Oregon do you…?

Good guess! I’m at Lewis & Clark law school in Portland. It’s been a little bit of a shock adjusting to some of the attitudes towards food here.

madamehearthwitch:

woolandcoffee:

estfortis:

woolandcoffee:

madamehearthwitch:

woolandcoffee:

madamehearthwitch:

woolandcoffee:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – I hate vegans, veganism, and the demonization of animal agriculture as a universal bad. Fucking fight me.

SAME SAME SAME

There are so many of them here at my school and it is e x h a u s t i n g. I’m currently at a lunch event that has only vegan mac n cheese (nevermind that soy is a common allergen and no one who has a soy allergy can eat any of the lunch), because the event planners figured that the event, which is about lab-grown meat, should have an environmentally friendly lunch. The ignorance is astounding. The assumption that all plant-based food is automatically more environmentally friendly than animal-based food, the idea that immediately ending all animal agriculture right away is the key to stopping climate change, the immediate “that’s vegan bashing!” response to any form of questioning or criticism. Basically, I have been here for 20 minutes and I need a double shot of whisky and a cheeseburger.

Don’t get me started on how many of their substitutes are made of P L A S T I C, and also fall apart in a year or so.

Right?? Honestly, my personal theory is that all veganism is actually deeply rooted in an aversion to death. The whole thing is based in the idea that death is bad, and should be avoided at all cost.

I think this is true. It’s the same thinking that suggests that we need to leave forests completely alone and never cut or let them burn. That’s actually terrible management but it keeps us from “killing trees” so it must be the only ethical way… right?

Yes, I think it comes from the same place. And I get it, it’s a very simple way of thinking that seems, at least on the outside, to be right. Killing things is bad, so we should just not kill things (by the same token, making any kind of mark on the environment is bad, only pure conservation is good, and so on). But that’s a very unrealistic way of looking at things. How we feed people, and how we manage our environment is not a simple thing. It is complex, dynamic, and no one thing is going to miraculously solve our problems.

((You’re totally making sense and I don’t think I’ve ever read a discussion on this website I’ve ever agreed with more than this one!))

((I’m glad to have some reasonable people to talk to about this. The law school that I go to tends to embrace the idea that veganism = best environmental practices, and engaging in any discussion of why that might not be the case can be a dicey thing. This post genuinely started as me being annoyed that the only food on offer at this lunch time event was a vegan pasta, so I’m glad that it could grow to something a little more eloquent than me just being cranky and hungry.))

estfortis:

woolandcoffee:

madamehearthwitch:

woolandcoffee:

madamehearthwitch:

woolandcoffee:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – I hate vegans, veganism, and the demonization of animal agriculture as a universal bad. Fucking fight me.

SAME SAME SAME

There are so many of them here at my school and it is e x h a u s t i n g. I’m currently at a lunch event that has only vegan mac n cheese (nevermind that soy is a common allergen and no one who has a soy allergy can eat any of the lunch), because the event planners figured that the event, which is about lab-grown meat, should have an environmentally friendly lunch. The ignorance is astounding. The assumption that all plant-based food is automatically more environmentally friendly than animal-based food, the idea that immediately ending all animal agriculture right away is the key to stopping climate change, the immediate “that’s vegan bashing!” response to any form of questioning or criticism. Basically, I have been here for 20 minutes and I need a double shot of whisky and a cheeseburger.

Don’t get me started on how many of their substitutes are made of P L A S T I C, and also fall apart in a year or so.

Right?? Honestly, my personal theory is that all veganism is actually deeply rooted in an aversion to death. The whole thing is based in the idea that death is bad, and should be avoided at all cost.

I think this is true. It’s the same thinking that suggests that we need to leave forests completely alone and never cut or let them burn. That’s actually terrible management but it keeps us from “killing trees” so it must be the only ethical way… right?

Yes, I think it comes from the same place. And I get it, it’s a very simple way of thinking that seems, at least on the outside, to be right. Killing things is bad, so we should just not kill things (by the same token, making any kind of mark on the environment is bad, only pure conservation is good, and so on). But that’s a very unrealistic way of looking at things. How we feed people, and how we manage our environment is not a simple thing. It is complex, dynamic, and no one thing is going to miraculously solve our problems.

madamehearthwitch:

woolandcoffee:

madamehearthwitch:

woolandcoffee:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – I hate vegans, veganism, and the demonization of animal agriculture as a universal bad. Fucking fight me.

SAME SAME SAME

There are so many of them here at my school and it is e x h a u s t i n g. I’m currently at a lunch event that has only vegan mac n cheese (nevermind that soy is a common allergen and no one who has a soy allergy can eat any of the lunch), because the event planners figured that the event, which is about lab-grown meat, should have an environmentally friendly lunch. The ignorance is astounding. The assumption that all plant-based food is automatically more environmentally friendly than animal-based food, the idea that immediately ending all animal agriculture right away is the key to stopping climate change, the immediate “that’s vegan bashing!” response to any form of questioning or criticism. Basically, I have been here for 20 minutes and I need a double shot of whisky and a cheeseburger.

Don’t get me started on how many of their substitutes are made of P L A S T I C, and also fall apart in a year or so.

Right?? Honestly, my personal theory is that all veganism is actually deeply rooted in an aversion to death. The whole thing is based in the idea that death is bad, and should be avoided at all cost.

woolandcoffee:

woolandcoffee:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – I hate vegans, veganism, and the demonization of animal agriculture as a universal bad. Fucking fight me.

And let’s be real – at this point isolating one thing, like destructive animal ag practices, and blaming it wholly for climate change is ignoring the true problem which is capitalism. Most, if not all, of the practices destroying our planet can be traced to capitalism. You can’t just treat symptoms of the disease, it won’t work.

Sweet Brighid’s buttery fingers, someone in the audience just made a comment about the horrible health risks of eating meat, made disparaging comments on our “reliance on meat,” and said that it’s easy for us to all have a plant-based diet. All these opinions, of course, are based on documentaries produced by anti-animal ag people/groups. It’s really not that black and white folks!